#004 FiLiA meets: CADFA, Part 1
This is part one of a two part series from CADFA & FiLiA.
CADFA was formed to promote human rights and respect for international humanitarian law, and our main method has been to link people in order to build awareness and understanding and encourage people to be active in pursuit of human rights.
Special thanks to: Nandita, Khawla, Hiyam, Kifaf and Salma
Here FiLiA spokeswoman Heather Brunskell-Evans joins CADFA to interview women from Palestine to hear directly what impact the Israeli—Palestinian conflict is having on their lives.
Find out more: http://www.cadfa.org/
Transcript:
HBE: My name is Heather Brunskell-Evans and I’m from a charity called FiLiA which is a women’s rights charity. What we do is, we try to give voice to women from all different parts of the world, because, as you know women’s rights are an issue, whichever country you live in, but it's great to talk to you today, and I'd like you to introduce yourself and you are from Palestine, with a contingency of women who are over in the UK, from Palestine at the moment.
H: Well, my name is Hiyam. I am working as an Executive Director in a Community centre in the old city of Jerusalem. Actually, the cause of, the main aims of the centre is to keep resilient, the resilience of the Palestinians in the old city. We work mainly with women and children who are the most vulnerable and who are the most affected by the situation. I’m not saying that the youth are not affected but children, the future of children and woman who are suffering a lot, is the main issue for our work.
HBE: You know I really understand that because I worked in Palestine for three months in Bethlehem and visited Jerusalem numerous times and the thing that I felt most strongly was, how do you retain your resilience, and your humanity? It just astonished how Palestinian people remained human under the pressure of the human rights abuses which were occurring all the time.
H: Yeah. Well it’s not easy, I mean, not everybody could be resilient because a lot of children, as you see now, and a lot of youth are driven to a lot of problems in Jerusalem. Actually the high percentage of drug addict is among the Palestinians in the whole city. Also, a lot of children are driven to violence, a lot of social problems. I think that the situation has been deteriorated in a way that is difficult. First of all education, which was one of the problems, one of the main basic things that the Palestinians relied on all the time to keep their resilience has deteriorated, especially in Jerusalem. There is a high percentage of drop-outs, who do not finish tenth grade.
HBE: Is this boys as well as girls? Is there a difference between them?
H: Boys as well as girls but who are much more stay in schools are the girls, actually
HBE: The girls stay more, yeah
H: If you go to universities, you will find that 70%, 60 / 70% are girls and 30 are boys. Because most of the boys go, they drop out, they have, like, the responsibility to find out work, to keep the economical situation of the family. It’s easier for the boys to get out of school because they have a kind of social freedom, they can go wherever they want, do whatever they want, which is easier for them to be much more driven from education, while girls it's the only option that they have, to stay educated. How to keep this situation? We think, in our centre, we want to keep the resilience by empowering children, women, empowering life skills that help them, be able to deal with the situation, be able to find solutions for the problems, be able to have, kind of, confidence, by themselves, to find out when they determined that they want to live, they may find out they may find out their aims and their abilities, it’s more, much important, for them, for us, to help them, to know, to keep themselves healthy, in a way, is very important.
HBE: Yes, yes
H: Because the other choice is to be driven to other problems
HBE: Yes, absolutely
H: So, we concentrate actually on education, on empowering children in education and we work on the educational situation and we work on life skills, life skills like critical thinking, is one of them
HBE: That’s amazing
H: Because they, it’s a skill that help them to be able to evaluate, analyse, think, about the situation in general, find options, and we survive, we work also on their self-identity, because a lot of children do not know who are they? What they like? What they don’t like? What their abilities? Who are they? This is something important, and with that is eradication of education and also the right, the human rights that are violated all the time by the Israelis, one of them is the identity right, the nationality right, these main rights are important for any person to grow up in a healthy situation, to know himself, to know his past, his history which has prevented a lot of children in Jerusalem today, do not have identity, do not have birth of certificate, they don’t have, why? Because, because after occupying East Jerusalem after1967, there was an aim for the Israelis, because Jerusalem, the whole Jerusalem should be for one people who are the Israelis and mainly Jewish people. So they start their plans and they put one of the plans that called 2020 that they want the inhabitants of Jerusalem by 2020 to be more than 70% Israelis, so they start their procedures by evacuating the Jerusalemite ID by those who are living in Jerusalem.
Who live Jerusalem more than two years, they take this right, which is the only right, which is the only thing which proves that these people are existed. Because after 1967, they deal with, they, they dealt with the population, Palestinian population, as if they are immigrants come there
HBE: Yes, can you just explain for the listener, what actually happened in 1967? If you can do that quickly, just, yeah.
H: Yeah, yeah. ‘Cos after 1967 they come and they start to make, like, statistics, who is here and who .. a lot of people were outside the country. They were outside the country for, for work. I mean, they were working, they used to go and come to Palestine, they work in Arab countries, in Europe, like any other nations in the world, some people used to go out for education for.. So, at that moment they come and they make like statistics they count who is here and there and then giving who are in Jerusalem, Jerusalem ID which means that you have the right to stay in Jerusalem as long as you are paying taxes and proving that you are living in Jerusalem. So, yeah, so, who ever leave Jerusalem for any reason, this identity will be evacuated from, from them. In this case, a lot of Jerusalemites, for example, who love somebody from the West Bank, these people, they are Palestinians like us, and we used to move together, to live together back and forth, there are restrictions now, who is coming to Jerusalem. For example, I want to give you a woman who is from outside, come to Jerusalem, married someone from Jerusalem, she would love to have that Jerusalemite identity unless they prove that a lot of documents and things that they demand. A lot of women in Jerusalem, they live without any right. They can't move in Jerusalem because they don’t have permission to move. They don’t have identity. They have children. Sometimes, the parents are not, I mean, together, they may be divorced or something, the woman find themselves stuck in a situation that they can’t go back to their parents because they will lose children, they will lose everything, they can’t see them, because of the custody, there are two custodies, not with the woman that I took us that is not with the woman
HBE: It’s it with the Father.
H: It’s it with the Father. On the other side, their children do not have birth certificate unless they prove that they are living in Jerusalem. So, if they are living in Jerusalem, they have to come to the house, to see that they are living here. And they, they go to further procedures that are really difficult they, they come to the houses, they open the fridge, they open the fresh, and they take photos because they want to be sure that you are living and not just renting this house and you are pretending that you are living here, they want to be sure that the center of your life is in Jerusalem. So, I know a lot of women, a lot of women who are living in Jerusalem, they are without anything, they can’t leave Jerusalem, they are prisoners in Jerusalem. They lost their, their right to move, even. You know, this is something that's crazy, but this is happening in Jerusalem. And if the Jerusalemite woman gets married to a man from the West Bank, this is also another tragedy, because they don't give him permission to come to Jerusalem and live, they don’t. He has to be living in the West Bank, she should stay living in Jerusalem, otherwise they will take her identity and their children stay for a long time, for me, for my daughter, my daughter got married to someone from Nablus. Okay, so he rented a house in Bethlehem, because he's young, they don't give him permission to visit Jerusalem even permission to visit. So she should visit him by the end of the week, stay with him. They have a baby and the baby is become one year and a half and she doesn't have a birth certificate. They didn't give her the certificate, unless they come to our house, and they go to the house and they find her. If she was for any reason out of the house, because they, they don't tell you that they are coming, maybe you are out on a visit, maybe you're in a hospital, maybe you are anywhere
HBE: Shopping
H: Shopping! If they don't find you, this means they tell us, everything is end, you have to start from the beginning. So they come, by chance she was at house, they go to the bedroom, they open her cupboard, they see that she has clothes for herself, for her child. See if she has toys. See if she has all these things. So, this is crazy thing. Crazy, you can't imagine how much
HBE: I think for people in this country it's actually unimaginable to think, to think of those experiences, to put, for people to put themselves in the place of somebody because it's, it's an erosion of identity, we just take our identities for granted, we don't think about it all the time, but to have your identity continuously under threat in that way. I mean it would be, it would, what astonishes me about the Palestinian resilience, and I know that, I know that Palestinian people are very vulnerable too. But, in the face of this onslaught to identity. I just think there is amazing strength.
H: Yeah, the strength came from the faith, and the belief that we don't have any other opportunity. We don't want to be refugees again because Palestinians were refugees in 1948. And they scattered all over the Arab countries and the world, until now they are humiliated and not treated fairly and also in 1967, a lot of Palestinians run out of their houses because of the massacres because of the war because of everything they left their houses and moved, lived in camps in the West Bank and Gaza, in different places also in the world. And they still suffer, they are still treated as if they are foreigners, strangers and, I don’t know. So, I think that Palestinians understand now that they don’t have any other choice, they want to stay in their land, they want to stay in their country, they want to die there, and they want to be, to feel that, okay, we don't want .. we are under occupation, occupation can humiliate us but he is, they are occupation, and we can struggle for occupation. We don't want to struggle for other, in another country for our rights. So this is what is happening now, this is what keep us. This strength you can't imagine, I, look, I meet a lot of woman in the Old City, who don't have a permission to stay with their children, and some of them, their husbands are drug addicted. But I don't know how they wake up in the morning and take, I don’t know, this is difficult, this is difficult. And they know, if they leave their children they will lose the right to return back and see them again. Why? This is the situation. A lot of, a lot of young woman came back, not, their parents used to work, for example, in America, when they start to evacuate the Jerusalemite ID from those who leave Jerusalem for abroad. And though they have their houses in Jerusalem, I mean, they have their land, their house and they used to come for visit every year. But when they start to evacuate, they come with their children. Some children, one of the employees in my centre, she's an accountant. She stayed in Jerusalem, she studied in Jerusalem, she came back with her children from US, when she was four. Do you know when she got the first time the visa to move in Jerusalem? Last year. She's now 26, can you imagine this, she didn't left Jerusalem for more than 22 years, she's as a prisoner, what is the difference?! She couldn't even visit Bethlehem, you, you was in Bethlehem you see how much, very close.
And she didn’t go to Ramallah. Once we went together, she was working with the, with the centre and before she got the visa approval, we went to Jaffa with her. It’s the first time that she go and see the sea and visit the Palestinian city. When we come back, there was a check point and they asked her for her identity ID, Teudat Zehut, she doesn't have, they took her, they investigate her and maybe I analysed the situation that time. After waiting more than one hours, one hour, and we were really afraid that we will be punished because we let her come to that bus that we were driving in, this is, this is also another issue, you know that the same family, the same family, husband and the wife, if he take his wife with him, who doesn’t have the permission to stay with him in Jerusalem, they will punish the husband. This is a crazy thing. Can you imagine this? A lot of children do not have identity, where is this human law? This is something crazy.
HBE: It is, it is. So, when you said you taught, you teach to the children critical thinking, what do you mean by that? What is it that you're trying to get them to understand?
H: Well I think, I think, yeah, I think that the cognitive skills help if they were trained because a lot of people do not know that theses are not, that anybody can gain these skills, it’s not born or whatever. So we can train them to find more than solution for a problem, we expose them to different kinds of situation, to think how to come out positively from this situation without a harm to the self. So, what we do with the children, is that we train them, all the time, to find solutions, to know how to deal through stories, through questions, through situations. This is one, because in the long run they will know how to evaluate, analyse and to come out with positive thing that will not harm them, this is very important, so this is what we do
HBE: I think it’s so important because, in a sense, unless you teach the critical thinking, there are just two options, either you just go inside yourself and feel humiliated and bitter, or you feel so angry at the situation and, I was astonished at how Palestinians kind of negotiated around that, very sensibly, I thought, so, you know, when I came back to the UK I kept wanting to say, I don’t know why the Palestinians are not more angry than they are, because always there was a sense of …
H: But they are, they are angry. You can realise this by, in, in, while they are waiting in lines to be checked in a checkpoint, sometimes they start to fight, to blame each other, because, oh you, you, I am before you, this comes, this comes, the violence that is inside the children that I see, I can see this in the centre, this is one of the things that critical thinking can help to find other kind, to accept, to know how to deal with others without, yeah
HBE: Is there a difference between the boys and the girls in the way that they are?
H: Yeah, but you can’t imagine that the girls also use violence and the way they are expressing themselves. There is a lot of anger and they, I know that, even when we, if we have the opportunity to live in peace, we will need time to adjust ourselves to this kind of peaceful situation because sometimes I..
HBE: Generations
H: Generations. I am living in a closed place which is nearly in Jerusalem but even in Jerusalem, sometimes you are in a hurry, sometimes I want to go home because I have, for example, an appointment or something. There is a checkpoint. And they come the bus, they check your card, and sometimes there are teenagers, they look like they are old but they are not! And they ask about their identity, where is your identity? Ah, I don’t have identity, I’m still 14. No, you are a liar. What?! You can’t imagine how you feeling, you can’t protect these children, and they humiliate them in a way, so it’s not, I mean, a lot, a lot of things to pass, to go through the life in Palestine.
HBE: When you come to the UK, what is it you, what’s your hope for being here, is it that people hear your voice and hear what it is actually like so that it counteracts the news that we get which is filtered?
H: I hope that, I know that in the beginning, justice should be given to everybody and I know that we are affected by each other, even if I am living in Palestine and you are living in UK, you will pay, because what’s happening in the Middle East, in the long run, Syrian, you have Syrian refugees, you have Iraqi refugees, you are affected in a way, you can’t say I don’t, I’m not, you can’t turn your back while human rights are violated and I think that the problem of Palestine, lasted for long and it depends now on international community, they should have a voice towards their governments, because I know even, for me as a Palestinian, the English people do not have any guilt for Balfour, what decided to do at the beginning of the century, to give Palestine to other, he doesn’t own Palestine, he promised the Jewish people of Palestine, this is not fair, I feel that English people should know about this. At least, I’m not saying, we don’t want to get rid of the Jewish people, because we are, as Palestinian people, lived, years ago, as Palestinian Christian, Muslim and Jewish and there was a lot of Jewish people who are Palestinians and we lived together peacefully and there was this kind of relation, that we even, Palestinians, I mean, they protected Jewish people from Turkish government while they were occupying the country because Turkish were helping German people and this is something that…
HBE: Is this during the war you are talking?
H: Yes, yes! This is history. Now everybody is turning there and after Trump, his decision and he is, I mean, he is the part that was peace agreement was done under their umbrella, what happened to this? How can you trust people like this? Like the Palestinians were committed all the time, to do what they had to do, and at the end, what happened to us? We were destroyed after Oslo, at least we survived and we depend on ourselves in a lot of things, now we are depending on international aid and we became as everybody, they let everybody believe that the issue of Palestinians was resolved while it wasn’t solved, it was complicated, I mean..
HBE: I know, do you get a sense, are there groups of women in different parts of the world that you are in contact with? Is there any sort of solidarity? If you can’t trust politicians, you can’t trust your government..
H: I trust women. I believe that women can change if they want, they can change, and I believe, in the long run woman, if they took their part, because I met woman from all over the world, not sometimes organised in woman, but they told me that, when they want to stop in within something happen, like this demonstration that happened woman because they want to stop the weapon internationally, Russia and America were the two, you know, I don’t know how to express it in English, but I believe that woman who bring children can feel this, they can change, because who are suffering now are woman and children and I don’t think that any woman in the world want her children to be harmed, killed, abused, this is what I believe, but the men, naturally, do not care, this is what is happening now. And this crazy Trump come now and I don’t know what will happen now. I think the people should take part in this story.
HBE: Me too, me too! We could talk for absolutely hours, I could listen to you for hours but there are other people wanting to interview as well so can I say thank you.